So, I Guess L.A.'s the Place?

I am glad to hear that Lig and C.J. are in Los Angeles for the CBMW board meeting.  I thank God for the work of CBMW and pray God’s blessings on your meeting.  Randy Stinson does a great job as executive director and Lig as chairman.  Readers should check out the CBMW Web site for a Fort Knox of resources on biblical manhood and womanhood.

I am in Dallas, Texas in order to preach in a couple of hours for the state Baptist convention here [SBTC] and I am scheduled to be in L.A. later today in order to serve as the "Distinguished Speaker Series" preacher/lecturer at Biola University for the remainder of the week.  I will do my best to be distinguished for the Gospel.

Over the weekend, I was at the First Baptist Church of Jacksonville, Florida for its annual Pastors Conference, which has over 10,000 registered this year.  I preached Sunday night on Acts 20:17-38, the text in which the Apostle Paul offers his defense of his ministry in Ephesus.  It seemed a fitting text as Dr. Jerry Vines, the pastor of that congregation, retired from the pastorate after 50 years of service as a pastor — 23 years at this church.  I was convicted all over again about the absolute centrality of expository preaching to the life of the church.  "I kept back nothing," Paul insisted, but preached the whole counsel of God.  I was also reminded all over again that God honors long service in one place.  The fruit of a long and faithful pulpit ministry is evident in the congregation’s maturity, passion, and faithfulness.

C.J. and Lig:  Perhaps we should have a southern California impromptu meeting somewhere?  Just no sushi, please. 

Barna, CCEF

Dear
Lig, Great to hear of you and CJ out in LA working on such a crucial issue.
Thanks for giving time to do that.  Al, I will look forward to your review
of Barna.  We also have one coming on the 9Marks website. Interesting
comparisons with Barna would be.

• Herbert Hoefer, Churchless Christianity (1991/2001)
• Alan Jamieson, A Churchless Faith:  Faith Journeys Beyond the Churches
       (2002)
• Nick Page, The Church Invisible (2004).

The
issues involved are not that different than the issues in the nature of the
church discussions in the church planting movement.  One interesting
conversation that I just barely got into with Peter Jensen last week was not
only having elders in a congregation, but formally recognizing them, in order
to gain both their consent to serve and the congregation’s consent to
follow.  Garry Wills has written about how leadership works by
"reciprocally engaging two wills", and while Wills says that is often
done without formal recognition, I think in the context of a Biblical church
with a clear injunction in Hebrews 13 to obey your elders, it’s very difficult
seeing how certain aspects of leadership could be exercised WITHOUT formal,
public consent from both parties entering into the relationship.  Back
around to Barna and some CPMovement thinking–formal membership seems to be
implied in the formal recognition of leadership.  Leader of whom, of which
people?

On the
topic of CCEF (Christian Counseling and Education Foundation) we (CHBC) have
been blessed by them this last week.  CJ (one of their trustees) came and
addressed the men on Tuesday night on making our wives beautiful.  Ed
Welch came down on Friday, we did a 9Marks interview with him, and then he
addressed the women on Friday night on the topic of thinness and beauty. It was
actually Al who began this series for us in the fall with a wonderful address
on the nature of true beauty.  Ed & Al’s addresses should be available
for listening to on line at the www.capitolhillbaptist.org
website.  And then, Dave Powlison turned up in church yesterday!  It
was good to see him, and he was as encouraging as always.

It was
great for me to be at my home congregation again, after being away for 2 weeks,
and we had an unusually sweet time in the gospel, with the sermon being on II
Cor. 5:11-7:1.

Responding to Readers on Reading

Thanks to all those who sent comments and questions on my earlier post, "Some Thoughts on the Reading of Books."  I really respect your thoughtful questions, and I will attempt to respond in kind.

What About Reading Fiction?

I believe that literature and the fictive imagination are among God’s gifts.  I read a great deal of fiction, and try to keep up on what the culture is reading.  That does not mean that I always have to read what the world is reading, but I do read enough to know what is shaping the minds of those around me. Beyond that, I truly enjoy losing myself in a story.  I am a big fan of authors such as Flannery O’Connor and Walker Percy, and I read quite a bit of contemporary fiction.  Of course, one must choose carefully here, and fiction is recreational reading — not study. 

One of the main values of reading fiction and great literature is that it develops the imagination and enhances literary style.  Just admit that you like fiction, if you do — but keep it in its place.  I keep a literary project going at all times, but it falls last in priority.  Plunder the Egyptians, and read the classics of literature. 

What About Reading Bad Theology?

That is perhaps an inelegant way of putting the issue, but that’s the way it was asked.  Fair enough.  In one sense, the answer to this question depends upon your ministry and theological vocation.  Most persons should read very little bad theology, period.  That is, given the stewardship of time and attention (as well as the stewardship of mind and heart), most persons should devote themselves to reading Bishop J.C. Ryle, not Bishop J. S. Spong.  Those who will teach theology, debate theological issues, and delve into deep study in these areas will have to read a great deal of awful stuff. 

Pastors should certainly read enough to know what is going on at the level of popular theology (be brave and go into a Christian bookstore) and in the cultural conversation.  My library has an entire collection of various heretical writings, ranging from the heresies of the ancients to the heresies of the present day.  I read them in order to understand them, to confront them, and to correct their heresies with the truth.

How will you understand Augustine if you do not understand Pelagius (whose writings are mostly lost)?  How can you understand Calvin without knowing about Servetus?  Machen without Fosdick?  Mahaney without Jakes?  Oops, that last one was as yet a dream.

I have hundreds of books in Roman Catholic theology — and these make me all the more committed to the Reformation.  I can’t teach theological method to Ph.D. students without being conversant and knowledgeable in this area.  Yet, I wouldn’t put these books in my church library.  Time and place, people.

Similarly, I wrote my dissertation on the evangelical response to Karl Barth.  Barth was sub-orthodox in his general system and in the outworking of his theology, and it is important for evangelicals to know why.  So I require my doctoral students to read Barth, but I wouldn’t hand Barth to a layman looking for a book on doctrine.

Evangelical scholars have a double duty in scholarship.  We have to read the liberals’ books as well as the works of evangelical scholarship.  The liberals, on the other hand, generally do not bother to read the evangelicals.  Orthodox doctrine just doesn’t interest them, and they see us as hopelessly wedded to a dead and oppressive tradition.  We must outread the opposition.

What About Reading Big Projects?

When I talk about big reading project, I mean big.  Set the goal of reading through great theologians.  Get the works of Edwards and start reading.  Read Luther and Calvin and Bunyan and the Puritans.  Buy sets (amazingly inexpensive these days, often many times less than our forefathers would have paid, adjusted for inflation).  Don’t try to read through Luther in a month.  Set yourself a project that may take a couple of years.  Just think of what you can read in a lifetime.  I find myself constantly remembering what I have read in these great projects, because reading in a disciplined and cumulative fashion really aids memory and recollection.

What About Little Reading Projects?

Plan ahead for several smaller reading projects each year. Right now, start collecting books on a few topics for next year.  These might be projects on specific doctrines or theological issues, or on developments like the emerging church or a question related to the family.  Ask for book recommendations in these areas and create shelf space (or stacks on the floor) to collect the books together.  Then, go for it.  You can do several of these a year if you plan well and read regularly.  You will learn more, I believe, by reading this way than by reading more randomly — even if some of the same books are read. 

What About Writing in Books?

I decide what kind of marking system I will use for each book.  Books read for immediate concern that are not likely to have prize space in my library a few years from now are generally marked with pen, yellow highlighter, and 3M reading flags.  Books of lasting value are most often marked in pencil with reading flags.  The flags are made of light adhesive and mark a page for immediate future reference.  Books of great inherent value, special editions, and antiquarian volumes are not marked at all.  Forbid the thought. 

As far as markings, just develop your own.  I mark off statements and paragraphs of special interest and I even argue with books in the margins.  I often write key words at the bottom right corner of a page.

How Much Time Should I Give to Reading?

That question is impossible to answer on its face.  A disciplined program of reading (beyond sermon preparation) that averages two hours a day will accumulate to great riches.  You will lose some days in other urgencies and will find more than two hours on other days.  Think long term.  Also, different stages of life bring demand different patterns.  Don’t expect to get a great deal of reading done right after the birth of a baby in the family.  Take hold of the time you have and make the most of it.  Read Carl Henry’s God, Revelation and Authority aloud to your babies as they are rocked to sleep.  Henry’s penchant for elaborate compound nouns will work wonders on the baby.  The theological arguments will be good for your soul.  See . . . a win-win for good reading.

More to come.  Thanks for the good questions.  Your interest in these notes in reading encourages me.

Speaking of encouragement, I was really encouraged by C.J.’s posting, "A Passion form Reading and Learning."  Thank for listing Calvin and Hobbes, C.J..  Christopher and I are big fans.

Mark, I will be publishing a full review of Barna’s Revolution in about a week.  I’ll try to drop some comments before then. 

C.J., here is my Super Bowl prediction:  The winner will be either the Seattle Seahawks or the Pittsburg Steelers.  I heard that inside scoop on TBN.  Just call it a word of knowledge.

Back to reading.  Tonight I am reading Bernard-Henri Levy’s, American Vertigo.  Levy, a French philosopher (and atheist) retraces the steps of Alexis de Tocqueville (and then some).  Best lines thus far:  The banks in America look like churches.  But here is a church that looks like a bank."  (On Willow Creek Community Church in suburban Chicago.)

Revolutionary Church Members?

George Barna’s new book Revolution intends to be a provocative look at what the core and kernel of Biblical Christianity is really all about, when it is pried out of its accumulated cultural casing–formal church membership, formally recognized elders in authority, etc.  Unfortunately, Mr. Barna throws the baby out with the bathwater.  Networks of friends with social class or hobbies in common, shared para-church ministries, and other such commonalities will not, I fear, evidence the Christian love of one another–including those NOT so similar to us–as might be hoped.  But can I say something good about the book?  Yes.  Barna’s Seven Passions of Revolutionaries (on pp. 22-25 of the book) are all good (depending on how the first one is defined).  Here they are:

1) Intimate Worship

2) Faith-Based Conversations

3) Intentional Spiritual Growth

4) Servanthood

5) Resource Investment

6) Spiritual Friendships

7) Family Faith

I would like to see biblical, sincere engagement with God.  I have often commented that in our congregation, I want to see spiritual conversations become normal and regular.  I desire people to be intentional and DELIBERATE about their growth as Christians.  I pray that I and the other elders in our congregation model servanthood, honor it, and are emulated in it.  At CHBC, we pray for and rely on serious resource investments of time, money & talent.  We are deliberate about encouraging and forming spiritual friendships.  And we very much want to cultivate the Christian faith shaping and being taught in our families.  In all these ways, I wondered, reading Barna’s book, if he had only ever been to evangelical congregations that were typified by passionless members, and if he would have written his book if he had been a part of a congregation which found these 7 passions as typical marks of healthy church membership. 

A Passion for Reading and Learning

Lig, I loved that line, “…cause sometimes no. 3 has to kick it back out to no. 1 for the trey from a suburban zip code.”

It would be my joy to answer these questions. But first thanks to you, Al and Mark, for your substantive answers in previous posts and your compelling example in this area.

1) When and how did your love for reading begin?
Actually I can remember the very moment when my love for reading began. It was immediately following my experience of sovereign grace through the proclamation of the gospel. When I was 18 a friend who had relocated to Florida returned to Maryland in order to share the gospel with me. He had been converted for just a few weeks. That evening was the first time anyone had shared the gospel with me and God in his mercy regenerated my heart and forgave my many sins. On that most special evening I realized that the Son of God “…loved me and gave himself for me” (Gal 2:20). And though that evening was 34 years ago it seems to me like it all just happened last night so vivid is my memory of that momentous evening. So what does this have to do with reading? Well, until that evening a passion for reading and the practice of reading simply didn’t exist in my life. The only reading I did was the Washington Post sports page and Sports Illustrated magazine. But on that evening I couldn’t stop reading the KJV Bible my friend left for me. And though I didn’t understand much of what I was reading I knew that I was reading “… the words of eternal life” (Jn 6:68). This new love for reading about the Savior was dramatic and a convincing proof to me of the genuineness of my conversion. And by the grace of God, since that miraculous moment of regeneration, I have not stopped reading and cannot imagine a 24-hour period without reading. For me reading has been a means of increasing in my knowledge of God, cultivating fresh affection for God, and experiencing the nearness of God. It has been my practice to begin and end each day reading. One simply cannot serve effectively as a pastor apart from a passion for reading. And I believe that all pastors should have an unlimited book allowance!

2) Describe your present practice of the spiritual disciplines.
This wonderful means of grace normally takes place at the beginning of the day for approximately 1 hour. I agree with George Mueller’s approach to this important practice, “…that the first great and primary business to which I ought to attend every day was, to have my soul happy in the Lord.” And there is no more effective way to cultivate happiness of soul than to preach the gospel to myself. So my morning spiritual diet normally involves surveying the wondrous Cross on which the Prince of Glory died. John Stott wrote, “The Cross is a blazing fire at which the flame of our love is kindled, but we have to get near enough for its sparks to fall on us.” So each morning I want to get near enough to the Cross so these transforming sparks will fall on my soul leaving me freshly amazed by grace and full of affection for the God of all grace. At present I am making my way slowly through The Gospel of Mark. I read and reflect on just a few verses each day. And I am studying Mark’s gospel with the help of James Edwards commentary The Gospel According to Mark and The Cross from a Distance; Atonement in Mark’s Gospel by Peter Bolt. By God’s grace sparks are falling on my soul.

3) Apart from the daily study of Scripture approximately how much time do you devote to reading each day or week?
Lots.

4) What books are you presently reading?

When I Don’t Desire God: How to Fight for Joy by John Piper

The Cross He Bore by Frederick Leahy

Speaking Truth in Love by David Powlison

The Dominance of Evangelicalism: The Age of Spurgeon and Moody by David Bebbington

Who’s Afraid of the Holy Spirit? Edited by Daniel Wallace and James Sawyer (When I first saw the title of this book I thought this might be a book about you guys but it’s not).

Team of Rivals: The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln by Doris Kearns Goodwin

5. How many books did you read last week?
I am glad you asked! In the last week I have read an excellent book co-authored by my good friend Ligon Duncan (along with Susan Hunt) titled Women’s Ministry in the Local Church. I am not aware of another book quite like it. I had the privilege of reading the manuscript and the honor of providing an endorsement for the book:

“Pastors desperately need books that ground methodology upon theology – this is indeed such a book. Ligon Duncan and Susan Hunt faithfully uphold the truth of the Scripture and winsomely affirm the critical importance of women in the church’s life and ministry. What sets this book apart is not only the author’s careful thought but their compelling personal examples. The result is a deeply biblical yet intensely practical guide that will greatly benefit not only women, but pastors as well.” (must reading for pastors)

I read the book again because sadly I had forgotten everything I previously read in the manuscript I was sent months ago. For me this is the only discouraging aspect of reading. I read a lot but seem to retain very little. Here I confront the harsh reality of the Fall as well as my average intelligence. I am just not one of the smart guys. I am however an exceptional athlete and I do find great comfort in this.

I have also recently read Uprooting Anger by Robert Jones and God, Family and Marriage by Andreas Kostenberger and would recommend them both to all.

6. What have been the five to ten most influential books you have read?

1.    Knowing God by J.I. Packer

2.    The Holiness of God by R.C. Sproul

3.    The Cross of Christ by John Stott

4.    The Cross and Christian Ministry by D. A. Carson (must reading for every pastor)

5.    John Owen on the Christian Life by Sinclair B. Ferguson and Temptation and Sin (Volume 6) by John Owen

6.    The Forgotten Spurgeon by Iain Murray (must reading for every pastor)

7.    The Journal of Biblical Counseling edited by David Powlison (must reading for every pastor)

8.    Instruments in the Redeemer’s Hands by Paul Tripp (must reading for every pastor)

9.    Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood edited by John Piper and Wayne Grudem (must reading for every pastor)

10.  The Days Are Just Packed: A Calvin and Hobbes Collection by Bill Watterson (must reading for every pastor)

And the list could just go on and on although I would agree with the wise counsel of Richard Baxter:

“It is not the reading of many books which is necessary to make one wise, but the well-reading of a few, could they be sure to be the best.”

7. Who do you like in the Super Bowl?
Let’s get one thing straight about the Super Bowl. The Super Bowl is THE most overrated event in all of sports. The Super Bowl rarely delivers as advertised. And the silly, superficial coverage for the two weeks leading up to the game is simply unbearable. Having made those important points, I must also state that I have no emotional attachment to either team. So I really don’t care who wins this year. I’d like to see Pittsburgh win because I have friends who are Steelers fans and Seattle did beat my Redskins in the playoffs (but not the regular season) so it’s not difficult for me to root against them. I think Pittsburgh has the better defense so I think they will win. Always pay attention to defense, my friends, no matter what the sport. But here is the good news. March Madness is coming! The NCAA basketball tournament that always delivers as advertised is fast approaching! (And I am predicting right here and right now that Duke will lose!) And how about if throughout March I provide a daily commentary on the tournament? Hey, I’ve got an idea. As a unique service to all who read this blog let’s the four of us liveblog from the final four! Al, can you get us tickets?

A Question about Liberty

Ok, friends, a quick question for you.  As we consider religious liberty in our nation, people often speak of non-establishment and free expression.  As pastors shouldn’t we consider and defend the freedom to practice church discipline as a litmus test?  I know that tyrannies like NAZISM certainly interferred with the free practice of church discipline.  When disagreement is taken as psychological violence then it seems like the practice of church discipline would certainly be misunderstood by a secular government as both emotional violence and incitement to hatred.  Furthermore, how will our churches recognize this loss of liberty when they’re not even practicing discipline?  Quick replies?

Real Men

Mark and Lig, if you haven’t already read the Winter 2005 issue of Southern Seminary magazine (The Tie) you must do so! The issue is titled “Show yourself a man” and there are two excellent articles for fathers and sons:

“Show yourself a man” by Randy Stinson (I am presently reading this article with my 12 year old son Chad).

“When does a boy become a man?” by Al Mohler (I will be reading this article with Chad in the future). Actually Al gave this message here at Covenant Life (“Being Men and Raising Men,” November 5, 2004) and it was a unique and outstanding message. I’m not aware of material like this in print and I will continue to annoy Al until an expanded version of this material is in print. Don’t get me started on all I want Al to publish!

And finally Al’s “President’s Journal” column titled “The Boy Problem, Then and Now” is an insightful summation of Terrence Moore’s essay, “Wimps and Barbarians: The Sons of Murphy Brown.” Here’s a great quote from Al’s column:

“Wimps, on the other hand, look to women for emotional support, consider girlfriends to be conversational partners and look to women for pity.”

Don’t want to be one of those!

Somehow this reminded me of a rule I want us to adopt for our blog. No smiley faces allowed! Real men do not use smiley faces on e-mails! This is fine for the ladies, but not the men. Real men communicate humor effectively without having to use a smiley face and real men can discern the presence of genuine humor without seeing a smiley face. So let our blog be free from all wimp-like communication!

An apostolic Agenda

CJ directed 4 questions to me in a recent post here.  Here are some brief answers.

1) Why did you create this annual rotation of theologians? I love C. S. Lewis’ introduction to Penelope Lawson’s translation of Athanasius’  On the Incarnation of the Word.  In it, Lewis talks about the clean sea breeze of the centuries blowing through our minds by reading old books.  I’ve several times heard folks exhorting the young to adopt one author to make him your special life time study.  I’m greedy.  I wanted more.  And no one was looking.  At least until now!

2) What has been the fruit and effect of this reading schedule upon your soul? I am humbled, inspired, encouraged.  Instructed.  Slowly but surely, I feel like I’ve come to understand each of these men better, particularly as I try to read their works chronologically (usually but not always).  I hear Stott as the young student worker (and perhaps a little more Arminian sounding in his first edition of "Becoming a Christian").  I see Carl Henry as the young journalist, studying theology.  I come to understand more of the Doctor’s life history and Spurgeon’s trajectory.  In the process, over the years, I feel that I come to know these men, and something of the times they were part of.  I feel that I am humbled by not only bringing my questions to them, and so reading only Death of Death, or the Institutes, but I’m listening to Edwards in sermons I’ve never heard of and being struck by the solemnity of a 19-year old young man in New York preaching things like this in his sermon "The Nakedness of Job" (Works [Yale Edition] volume 10, pp. 404-410:

Perhaps, when you read the history of Job, you read it as a strange thing that happened but once in the world; but, for the time to come, read it as a thing that happens daily, and frequently, for every man at death is as much deprived of all his worldly goods as Job was. . . . The history of job is only a shadow of death; it is no more than happens to every man in the world,” Jonathan Edwards. . . . We cannot think too often of our latter end. . . . Death serves all alike; as he deals with the poor, so he deals with the rich: is not awed at the appearance of a proud palace, a numerous attendance, or a majestic countenance; pulls a king out of his throne, and summons him before the judgment seat of God, with as few compliments and as little ceremony as he takes the poor man out of his cottage. Death is as rude with emperors as with beggars, and handles one with as much gentleness as the other. . . . Such is the folly of the world. They pursue violently after the world, slave and tire themselves for a little of it, are exceeding anxious and careful about it. Their minds are gnawn with care and anxiety; they undergo abundance of difficulties for it, and will often violate their consciences, disobey their God, and go very near hellfire—so near as to scorch them—come so near to the pit that their feet are every moment ready to slip. When they lose the world, they mourn as if they had met with a loss that it is impossible should be repaired either in this world or the next, and when they have got a little of the world, they please themselves with the thoughts of it as much as if they were sure they could never lose it, neither by death nor otherwise . . . . Before, they were careless and at ease, as if death were not wont to come into their parts of the world . . . .”

You see how material like this blesses my soul.  I could go on almost infinitely expressing how my own relationship with the Lord and reading of His Word is enriched by those who’ve gone before me, but have left some written sustenance for me.  These books standing on my shelves are my friends.  They stand politely, waiting for me to sit down and listen to some of the most thoughtful and inspiring members of the Christian family known to me.  They await only my time and attention.

3) in your ministry?  The effects in my ministry are probably largely the reflections of what these readings have done in my own soul.  Luther on the Psalms has often done a poor job, and this makes me careful in how I see Christ in the Psalms.  Owen is sometimes overly sharp in his criticisms and this makes me careful of criticism.  On the other hand, taking what seemed obvious to Augustine and wondering why it isn’t obvious to me has probably made me more thoughtful of some assertions.  And Warfield’s care over the text has certainly encouraged my own carefulness in Word ministry.  I know that my sermons & writings are littered with quotations from these men.  More immediately, I also have a "Theology Breakfast" many Thursday mornings from 7-8am where I simply read from these men to whomever appears.  Over the years, this has helped to introduce these men to those select few in the congregation who are willing & able to come to break their fast of theology.

4) Also, please do a post on the five to ten most influential books you have read.  I love reading "MOST" lists and hate writing them.  I will answer this question autobiographically, about which books I perceive to have been particularly used of God in my own life, not necessarily commending these books as the 5 or 10 BEST books out there, or that I would recommend now to everyone.

In the 1960′s–my mother’s reading to me of biographies of everyone from Abraham Lincoln and Robert E. Lee to Frank Lloyd Wright.  My own reading of the Harvard Classics series, especially the Socratic Dialogues of Plato.

In the 1970′s–The gospels (as a non-Christian), A. W. Pink’s The Sovereignty of God, Roy Hession’s Calvary Road, C. H. Spurgeon’s Morning & Evening, Frederick Crewes’ The Pooh Perplex, J. I. Packer’s Knowing God.  The article on Luke’s use of pnuema in Kittel’s.  J. I. Packer’s Introduction to Owen’s Death of Death. 

In the 1980′s–Dale Moody’s The Word of Truth (because it was so bad, it awoke be to the Southern Baptist situation), John Calvin’s Institutes (this helped turn me from a Presbyterian church-attending agnostic on baptism into a Presbyterian-church attending credobaptist), B. B. Warfield’s Inspiration and Authority of Scripture,  B. B. Warfield’s Perfectionism, John L. Dagg’s Manual of Theology, Richard Sibbes’ The Bruised Reed and Smoking Flax, Carl Henry, God, Revelation & Authority, H. C. Porter’s Reformation and Reaction in Tudor Cambridge (because it made the period come alive to me).

In the 1990′s–Richard Mueller’s study on Arminius.  I must confess that at this point, by the time I go to my pastorate in 1994, life gets so much THICKER that there is more of a blur, and I am less aware of the influence of individual volumes.  It’s not that I’ve stopped reading in the last 12 years, but I am busy now mining Scripture, and being deliberately shaped by so many books, but often in ways that have already been established.  So the category of "Influential" is more difficult for me to discern.

In the 2000′s–Ed Welch, When People are Big and God is Small, CJ Mahaney’s Humility.

Dear CJ, I hope that this has helped to answer the question.  And now, with Lig, I await your own answers!